From: J.Lee
Hello, Thank you for your excellent help that so many of us need. Your advice is invaluable!
We have four horses. Two of them are brother and sister and are 9 and 10 years old. They have never been separated, always sold together because they are so bonded. They have lived in larger herds that ours before and the gelding is always top horse, always giving any other geldings the run around. We introduced a 12hh. pony (mare) to them last year and all is well. Now we have a fourth, a 6 year old gelding, who has been here for three months. We have separated and experimented with different combos, all get along just fine as long as the geldings either have no mares in their pasture (they stay away from each other, or the older one asserts his dominance and the other obeys), or giving each gelding either mare and having two separate but happy couples. They often share a fence line and all the while the older gelding is busy bluff-charging and posturing to the younger gelding. If there wasn't a fence there would be trouble!! With winter coming to the northwest very soon now we want to have one happy, or at least SAFE herd so that we don't have to build another shelter and do multiple water troughs etc. I have heard that sometimes it can take 6 months for a herd to figure things out but we just don't have those months left to work with anymore. On trail rides all is well with all of them.
When we first introduced the two geldings they chased each other around the rocky hillsides until one cut his leg, threw a shoe and cracked the other gelding's shoulder blade so badly that he couldn't be ridden for months and had to have numerous body work sessions done. I am afraid of the damage that they might do to themselves and each other when we introduce them as a herd again. My husband is very anxious to get this over and done with and I am very trepidatious!!!!!! The younger gelding lived with several others and did fine, here he always gives in immediately and says, "okay, I get it, you're the boss, now back off." The older one just does not relent, we break it up and go back to the separated scenarios. Maybe I just didn't give it enough time before but now, what do I do? Do I just release them all and let them work it out???? Thanks for your advice, J.Lee
I changed the subject line of your question, because "herd dynamics" isn't really what you're dealing with here - the group you've described might, under certain circumstances, be able to coexist more or less peacefully, but it isn't and shouldn't be thought of as a "herd." And alas, I must say right up front that I share your trepidation! I'm afraid that you've effectively answered your own question: Some horses can never be combined in groups if you want all of the horses to remain sound and uninjured; other horses can be combined eventually, after six months or more of sharing a strong/high/safe fenceline, but the process may take much more time than you have. I am afraid that under the circumstances, just putting all four horses out together and letting them "work it out" is going to be a burning formula for disaster.
The scenario you've described above is precisely why so many horse owners and stable managers separate the mares from the geldings. Geldings who share pasture space with other geldings may be perfectly civilized, and quickly determine a pecking order that all can live with peacefully, but some geldings become extremely aggressive - towards the mares, towards one another, or both - when they are turned out with mares. Everyone knows at least one exception to the "don't mix mares and geldings" rule, and it sounds as though your original gelding and mare, plus the more recently-acquired pony mare, can get along well and play nicely together. However, as you've observed, everything changes when you put the second gelding into the pasture with them. From your first gelding's point of view, the new fellow is a threat to him: a challenger who is after "his" mares. You're not going to be able to sit him down and discuss the matter with him - he's a horse and he's going to react like a horse. In fact, he is already reacting like a horse. You saw what happened the first time you put them together, and yes, it's very likely to happen again, or something even worse may happen. I wouldn't take the chance if I were you.
Shelters and water tanks can be put into fencelines so that horses on both sides can have shelter and horses on both sides can have water, but the two groups can't mix (and fight) either at the water trough or inside the shelter. If your pasture with the shelter is big enough, you may be able to divide both the shed (with a solid partition) and the pasture itself (with a good fence) in such a way that all of the horses can use the same shelter and the same water tank. If the shelter itself is actually large enough to accomodate four horses (more about shelter size in a moment), that will make ife will be easier and more peaceful for everyone. Alternatively, you may need to extend the shelter or build a second shelter! Unless your current shelter is very large, it may not be big enough to accomodate four horses in safety.
If you do decide to add a new shelter or build an extension on to your current one, remember that a shelter doesn't have to be fancy as long as it's safe - a three-sided shed will do nicely. For safety's sake, make it wide, not deep - you don't want one horse to be able to block the entrance and keep other horses out, and you also don't want one horse to be able to corner and beat up another horse in the back of the shed. A well-designed three-sided shed will be positioned with its (closed) back to the prevailing wind. The front (open) part of the shed should be 11' or 12' tall; the back should be 9' tall. Figure on providing at least 80 square feet per horse. (80 square feet is not a huge space - it's a little bit larger than half of a 12x12 stall.) It's a good idea to build your shed with an overhang - at least 4', and 6' would be even better - so that when the wind comes from an unusual direction, there will be less wind and weather blowing into the shed. If your shed is metal, be sure to line the lower 4'(at least!) of the shed walls with 2" planks or 3/4" exterior grade plywood, because horses DO kick, and the cost of lining the walls with wood is trivial compared to the kind of vet bill that you're likely to see if a horse kicks through an unlined metal wall. Similarly, any partition used to divide a large shelter should be made of, or lined (on both sides) with wood.
And speaking of vet bills, here are a few other things I hope you will consider before you make another attempt to add that second gelding to your happy threesome.
First, you mentioned some serious fighting and some serious injuries that resulted when you first tried to add the new gelding to your group. Since the two geldings still have all of the same issues, there's no reason to believe that the same kind of fighting won't happen again. Since they're still quite capable of hurting one another, there's no reason to assume that this time you'll be lucky and they won't cause more damage. A cracked shoulder blade isn't trivial, and the same force applied elsewhere on a horse's body could easily result in a broken leg and/or a dead horse.
If you want to keep your group of horses - they are NOT a "herd" by any definition - SAFE, you'd better plan to keep them separated this winter. If they share a fenceline through the winter and seem to be relaxing in one another's company by spring, then you'll be able to try putting them together then IF you feel that the experiment is likely to be more successful. I know that winter is coming soon and that you don't have enough time to get the horses used to one another across the fence, but horses don't understand human priorities and time schedules, and they make friends - or not - on their own schedules, regardless of the time of year and the inconvenience that they may cause to the humans involved. All that being so, I strongly suggest that you put the time you DO have into adding a fence and a shelter.
Of course I understand that cost is a factor, but the cost of coping with even ONE major injury can easily surpass the cost of a line of solid fencing and a three-sided shelter. And if you choose to invest in the fence and shelter, then you will have a fence and shelter, which are good and useful things. If you throw the horses out together and they continue to fight and the resulting injuries are anything like the injuries they've already sustained, you'll be spending as much or more for transportation, treatment, and aftercare, and at the end of the day you will have... nothing, except, perhaps, a horse that has experienced a lot of pain and damage, and may or may not ever be completely sound again. Plus, at that point you'll be in the same situation you're in now, trying to figure out how to keep horses safe and sound when they've already made it clear that they aren't ready to live together in peace. In other words, you might end up paying for yet another serious injury and then having to find money for a fence and shelter anyway.
Time IS a factor here. Winter is coming. I do understand your dilemma, and I don't mean to trivialize the money and time that go into building shelters and fences and situating water tanks so that they can serve more than one pasture. But those expenses can be predicted and planned for - they're a known quantity - and the work can be done before the ground freezes hard. The expenses associated with treating a badly injured horse are not so predictable, and a horse recovering from injury is likely to require its own shelter and turnout, or even a stall... all of which are not only expensive, but may be difficult or impossible to build in mid-winter.
Finally, if you decide (and I hope you don't) to put all of the horses together and let them fight it out, at least remove their hind shoes! Even peaceful horses need their hind shoes removed if they're going to be turned out with others, because even peaceful horses can be provoked or startled or become annoyed and kick out, and if their hooves connect with another horse, the damage will be much greater if those hooves are shod.
I think that if I were in your situation, I would either build the necessary shelter and fencing to create a second pasture area that would be suitable for full-time turnout, even if it meant adding a second water tank, or I would (do you have a barn on your property?) resign myself to having the horses turned out on a part-time, twelve-hours-on, twelve-hours-off schedule, with each compatible pair going out into the pasture (with shelter and water) for 12 hours whilst the other pair stays in the barn (with shelter and water). If I had one pasture with shelter and water, no barn, and no possibility of adding a shelter and water to the second pasture, I would leave the three compatible horses in their full-time pasture and keep the second gelding somewhere else for the winter, preferably in a boarding situation where he could live in the gelding pasture. Boarding would mean paying for the second gelding's upkeep away from home, but at least his board bill would be predictable, and probably much less than the vet bills I would risk by keeping him at home and turning him out with the other horses.
It's a difficult problem and there's no solution that is both easy and inexpensive, but once you make your horses' safety and soundness the top priority, the various possible solutions do seem to fall into line.
Whatever you do, I wish you the very best of luck.
Jessica
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